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Old 06-11-2006, 04:45 PM   #1
Webkikr
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I have been a customer of ioFTPd for a long time and frankly all the excuses and failed release dates are past being amusing.

While their other piece of software that is supported by these boards seems to be updated on a regular basis (FlashFXP), the users of a project that was taken over are left in the dark.

The money is no longer a concern for me as the Foundation Members were paid their money after quite a delay (what a surprise.. a delay from this team..). The real concern is the false advertising on the main page, and the claims made on these forums.

Inicom needs to either dump this project, as it is pretty much dead anyway and let the users know, or actually produce something viable.

I have spoken to a lawyer where I live in Canada and he has advised me to retain counsel in New Mexico where Inicom's head quarters are and seek a class action lawsuit based on consumer fraud. Technically I would only need 1 or more other users to stand with me on the action and that would not be hard to find.

Personally the games are up.. I have had enough of them, and I am tired of waiting.

If you want information from me, you can email me via this board. That is if they don't delete this message.
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Old 06-11-2006, 05:47 PM   #2
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You can't see the forest through the tree. Meaning that you need to step back and look at the broader perspective of things.

Any company has to manage and balance their resources effectively, or they won’t be business for very long. ioFTPD generates little income for IniCom, therefore little time is spent on it. The majority of their efforts are focused on other projects…projects that do pay the bills.

I understand your frustration, but personally, I think you’re blaming the wrong entity. Darkone promised IniCom, and the ioFTPD community, to deliver the long awaited v1.0 release. Instead, he delivered a vastly incomplete and barely functioning core, took his paycheck, and disappeared for reasons unknown. IniCom is just as frustrated as the rest of us are, so try to be a little more sympathetic and considerate. IniCom still works on ioFTPD, but not with the resources they would like to (due to reasons stated above).

One thing I don’t understand is seeking gain for “consumer fraud”, as you call it. You purchased a product and you received it, transaction complete. How exactly were you defrauded? Nowhere in ioFTPD’s license agreement does it state you are entitled to future releases; IniCom provides them free of charge.

Before contacting a lawyer, did you make an effort to contact IniCom directly (e-mail, phone, etc.)? Since you’re unsatisfied with the product, did you ask IniCom if they have a return policy?

Disclaimer: My views in no way reflect those of IniCom’s, it’s just my take on the situation.

P.S. I split this from the previous thread, since it was unrelated.

Last edited by neoxed; 06-11-2006 at 06:02 PM.
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Old 06-11-2006, 06:11 PM   #3
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Well, D1 leaving did kinda start of this whole situation yeah. However iniCom can't pass the blame onto anyone else. Thats BS. They bought the product and agreed to take over responsibility to owners.
They're very badly run if they didn't make any count for the possibility of a member of staff leaving. And to not have the project running again after all this time is frankly ridiculous.
And no, iniCom have not supplied the purchased goods. io is in beta, they have provided a preview of the product, until its in final their deliverable is still outstanding.
I still think suing them is a little excessive, however other than that can't argue with much in that post.
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Old 06-13-2006, 12:21 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neoxed
You can't see the forest through the tree. Meaning that you need to step back and look at the broader perspective of things.

Any company has to manage and balance their resources effectively, or they won’t be business for very long. ioFTPD generates little income for IniCom, therefore little time is spent on it. The majority of their efforts are focused on other projects…projects that do pay the bills.

I understand your frustration, but personally, I think you’re blaming the wrong entity. Darkone promised IniCom, and the ioFTPD community, to deliver the long awaited v1.0 release. Instead, he delivered a vastly incomplete and barely functioning core, took his paycheck, and disappeared for reasons unknown. IniCom is just as frustrated as the rest of us are, so try to be a little more sympathetic and considerate. IniCom still works on ioFTPD, but not with the resources they would like to (due to reasons stated above).

One thing I don’t understand is seeking gain for “consumer fraud”, as you call it. You purchased a product and you received it, transaction complete. How exactly were you defrauded? Nowhere in ioFTPD’s license agreement does it state you are entitled to future releases; IniCom provides them free of charge.

Before contacting a lawyer, did you make an effort to contact IniCom directly (e-mail, phone, etc.)? Since you’re unsatisfied with the product, did you ask IniCom if they have a return policy?

Disclaimer: My views in no way reflect those of IniCom’s, it’s just my take on the situation.

P.S. I split this from the previous thread, since it was unrelated.
Darkone was the original programmer of ioFTPd, yes. Inicom purchased ioFTPd and Darkone was working for them and just vanished.. yes. So what.. Inicom now OWNS ioFTPd.

Surely they have someone on their staff that can resume the project to take it to completion.

Inicom has committed consumer fraud by selling licenses to ioFTPd 0.5.84 and stating that version 1.0 is:
Quote:
ioFTPD v1.0 Final is in its final stages of completion. More than a year in the making, ioFTPD v1.0 Final is a rock solid version of the beta version of ioFTPD that was released more than a year ago. ioFTPD v1.0 Final was designed with high performance and scalability in mind. While v1.0 Final is functionally similar to the beta version, v1.0 Final contains numerous changes and major rewrites to the original code base.
It has also done the same by stringing alone previous users who have purchased the program that this "verson 1.0" is "just around the corner" for almost a year.

That is blatant false advertisement, and the lawyer that I spoke to in New Mexico today believes that based on the content that he saw on the main site and these forums, that a class action suit under the terms of consumer fraud would not be a hard case to prove in this event.

You asked if I tried to contact Inicom directly... I have. Via email. I was told that version 1.0 was in the works and would be released "shortly". That was March 2005. This is June 2006.

There is a user on these boards called "IniCom" and one could only assume that he/she works there, and has numerously posted about Darkone and the trials that this has caused on the company and the project. So when I post here, I assume that I am talking to the company as there IS a representative that posts and obviously reads these boards.

You also mention that this project hardly makes any money so it is not a priority for them. If Inicom recieves $1 from a user with the expectation that something else is coming in the future due to advertising from them, they better be spending time on the project and making it a priority. If not, managing resources will be the last of their concerns...
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Old 06-15-2006, 02:24 PM   #5
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Webkikr:

"just around the corner" is not a legally binding statement, it does not imply a specific timeframe and therefore is not enough grounds for legal action. plus, what do you expect from legal action? to bankrupt this small business that you've paid $15 to, a company which has technically fufilled their commitment to you?

whats next? filing a lawsuit against a movie studio whose website states: "COMING SOON".... is it false advertisement just because soon isn't soon enough for you? it makes no promrises and sets no deadlines. i just feel your lawsuit lacks reasonable grounds.

as neoxed said, this is my opinion only, and not inicom's.
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Old 06-15-2006, 07:15 PM   #6
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Someone pointed this post out to me and I feel it's important to revisit the issue given some recent developments. There are some issues that should be addressed.

First, the threat of a class action lawsuit doesn't hold much given several factors. The purpose of the fee for ioFTPD was originally to support the project and the people who wrote scripts for it (the scripter's pool). When ioFTPD came under iniCom control, we carried the same pricing structure over with the same intent. Even at its highest sales point, the $10-$25 for ioFTPD didn't cover a full-time developer which is why D1 needed us to support the project.

When a license is purchased, users are given access to the beta product with the incentive that when (ok, purely for legal purposes I'll add "assuming") the final is released people who have supported the project will be given a final license at no additional cost. Keep in mind that the $10-$25 price was set to support the project. I can assure you that when the final product is released the pricing structure will have to change. Additionally, it has always been stated, and known that ioFTPD is a BETA product in current development. There is no complete feature list, expectations of a bug free product, or promise of continual development. In fact, there was a period of time where there was a question whether or not ioFTPD development would continue at all (before iniCom took over the project).

As far as stringing people along, that's hardly the case, or basis for a law suit. I can't help but wonder why a class-action hasn't been brought against 3D Realms for "Duke Nukem Forever" (Come on, even I can't defend that project). We're a year behind, yes, but we're far from deceiving consumers. A law suit will do nothing but hamper the development of ioFTPD as well as the rest of the projects we're working on by consuming resources with baseless lawsuits. Now on to the real issue...

As NeoXed stated, as iniCom has stated in the past, and as we all know, both ioFTPD users AND iniCom have been burned by DarkOne's handling and dropping of this project. I'm not going to revisit the history of non-commitment on D1's part, the money we've already put out, the missed deadlines, or any other reasoning to everyone's frustration. It's time we move past all of these statements.

Simply put, we're doing what we can. Alan (_panic_) is putting in as much time on the project as we can afford given other projects. I can't and won't ask more from someone who puts in as much overtime and dedication as he already does.

I want this project to move forward as much as everyone else and I'm open to any suggestion to get this project going as fast as we can. For the past several weeks iniCom has been talking/working with NeoXed to come on with our development group to explicitly work on ioFTPD. NeoXed understands the project's history and has developed for the program in the past. His efforts are voluntary with the understanding that performance will be rewarded. It's definitely welcome as it will allow many more hours to be devoted to ioFTPD development. Alan will continue as programmer and director of product development, ensuring that ioFTPD and FlashFXP continue in the same forward moving direction.

Lastly, one of my biggest concerns is that someone would feel the need to jump directly to this conclusion instead of talking to us first. iniCom has always been a customer oriented company, and we do our best to make ourselves available to our customers. If anyone is dissatisfied with the product, its development, support, or anything else, we would be happy to discuss, and work to resolve any issues.

-Jon L. Hill
President/COO
iniCom Networks Inc.
http://www.inicom.net
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Old 06-18-2006, 03:57 PM   #7
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Well i bought it long time ago and i don't feel that i have been robbed.
Common it's 15USD to support some cool project...
Stop wining when there is a delay.
Use the tools there are they work...
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Old 06-20-2006, 01:35 AM   #8
Webkikr
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IniCom
First, the threat of a class action lawsuit doesn't hold much given several factors. The purpose of the fee for ioFTPD was originally to support the project and the people who wrote scripts for it (the scripter's pool). When ioFTPD came under iniCom control, we carried the same pricing structure over with the same intent. Even at its highest sales point, the $10-$25 for ioFTPD didn't cover a full-time developer which is why D1 needed us to support the project.

When a license is purchased, users are given access to the beta product with the incentive that when (ok, purely for legal purposes I'll add "assuming") the final is released people who have supported the project will be given a final license at no additional cost. Keep in mind that the $10-$25 price was set to support the project. I can assure you that when the final product is released the pricing structure will have to change. Additionally, it has always been stated, and known that ioFTPD is a BETA product in current development. There is no complete feature list, expectations of a bug free product, or promise of continual development. In fact, there was a period of time where there was a question whether or not ioFTPD development would continue at all (before iniCom took over the project).
This is the problem. The money was paid for a beta product with the assumption that once the final product was released the license would still be good for that version as well. There was no assumption that there was going to be a final release, it was stated many times that there was/will be a final release.

It even states that ioFTPD FINAL 1.0 is almost ready on the front of this website. Who exactly are you trying to fool here? There is no assuming anything. You are actively advertising the "assumed" product.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IniCom
As far as stringing people along, that's hardly the case, or basis for a law suit. I can't help but wonder why a class-action hasn't been brought against 3D Realms for "Duke Nukem Forever" (Come on, even I can't defend that project). We're a year behind, yes, but we're far from deceiving consumers. A law suit will do nothing but hamper the development of ioFTPD as well as the rest of the projects we're working on by consuming resources with baseless lawsuits. Now on to the real issue...
Baseless lawsuits? Since when is consumer fraud a "baseless" lawsuit?

When a company is advertising a product that they don't even know when or if it will be released, and post updates on their forums to paying customers who have been waiting for said updated program, AND continue to sell said program on the basis of said advertising on the website, this IS consumer fraud.

I have spoken to an attorney in New Mexico, and he advises me that this would not be a baseless case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IniCom
Lastly, one of my biggest concerns is that someone would feel the need to jump directly to this conclusion instead of talking to us first. iniCom has always been a customer oriented company, and we do our best to make ourselves available to our customers. If anyone is dissatisfied with the product, its development, support, or anything else, we would be happy to discuss, and work to resolve any issues.

-Jon L. Hill
President/COO
iniCom Networks Inc.
http://www.inicom.net
I did email your company a year ago as I stated in this thread. I tried to talk to you about my discouragement relating to the project and I was basically sluffed off stating the release would be "soon".

Soon to me does not equal more than a year later.

My biggest concern is that once notified of my post here, instead of trying to contact me directly, you post here and hope that might come back and read/reply to it. What if I had just gone ahead with my baseless lawsuit?

I guess there is only one way to really find out.
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Old 06-20-2006, 08:48 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Webkikr
When a company is advertising a product that they don't even know when or if it will be released, and post updates on their forums to paying customers who have been waiting for said updated program, AND continue to sell said program on the basis of said advertising on the website, this IS consumer fraud.
no, consumer fraud would've been if they were lieing about updates or any progress. if this was a single person just bsing and collecting money. when in reality they have people working on this and other project, and there is progress and development is ongoing.
Quote:
I did email your company a year ago as I stated in this thread. I tried to talk to you about my discouragement relating to the project and I was basically sluffed off stating the release would be "soon".

Soon to me does not equal more than a year later.
so merit of your lawsuit will be that your definition of "soon" doesn't equial real world product development timeline.

Quote:
My biggest concern is that once notified of my post here, instead of trying to contact me directly, you post here and hope that might come back and read/reply to it. What if I had just gone ahead with my baseless lawsuit?
isn't it obvious that they have nothing to hide and are not afraid to address this topic in the open, publicly accessable forum?
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Old 06-20-2006, 12:34 PM   #10
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This it utter nonsense, as stated neoxed will be onboard soon with active development of ioFTPD, which is a step in the correct direction. But dont expect a miracle overnight solution to the wait for a "Final" version of ioFTPD. I've spoken to neoxed, and there are still some hurdles to overcome. I belive that if neoxed is allowed to work solely on ioFTPD, and not diverted to other projects that actually do make inicom money, then we will have hope. No one can blaim inicom or _panic_ for working on other projects that pay the bills. The root of this problem sits with dark0n3, and for whatever reasons he had for disappearing. Inicom, we have faith that neoxed will progress ioFTPD in the correct direction, please dont stifle his development with ioFTPD.
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Old 06-21-2006, 01:59 AM   #11
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Tuff,

Thank you for the positive comments and faith that we do still have this project's and the community's best interests at heart. NeoXed's entire purpose at this point is to further development on ioFTPD and his offer was solely to work on ioFTPd. Read the new ioFTPD post and there are a few other tid-bits of ioFTPd related info.

Regards,

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iniCom Networks Inc.
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Old 06-21-2006, 02:54 AM   #12
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Jeez what a fuss about a beta product. iofptd is still beta and there is a great support from the people here. If you want something else then just go and buy another ftp server. There are several others out there that are good.
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Old 06-22-2006, 10:41 PM   #13
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i still have great faith in this project, it is one of the best things i have ever bought and yes ioFTPD v1.0 isnt out yet and yes it has been stated that it will be out "soon" but we paid our money for the BETA version that was out at the time which has ALOT of functionality and i have relied on for along time.

yes the current ioFTPD beta has a few bugs but its nothing major that we cant live with, my current ioFTPD has been running with ioB2 since i built the PC its on (xxx- ioftpd is running for 74 days, 9 hours, 52 mins and 18 seconds.) thats great i have no issues with it, ioFTPD is still in development and will be for a long time. we will get v1.0 and when we do i bet that all this moaing about when it comes out wont have been worth it because i cant imagine it being much better then it already is. there are a few features i am looking forward to but nothing that is worth all this whining. ioFTPD BETA is good enough for me : and i hope that inicom are not put off by this or any other thread that is moaning about the lateness of v1.0 i hope that they know there are alot of people here supporting the work they are doing and will not give up on ioFTPD just because "its a bit late"

keep it up
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Old 06-23-2006, 04:22 AM   #14
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It seems to me that taking such an action will result in one of two basic outcomes, neither of which would be desired.

Pursuing such a class action suit could and almost certainly would, at best, result in huge further delays of the projects developement due to the huge demand on time, money and resources it would put on IniCom Networks. Not only would it impack on ioFTPd but it would also have significant impack on other projects managed by IniCom. At worst? well it could stop developement permanently and potentially put IniCom out of business.

The other way it could go is it could force IniCom to push out a final as quick as possible just for the sake of getting it out, and i think we all know what happens when developers of any software try to do that.

I can certainly understand your feelings for it taking so long, but im sure it was made clear at the time you purchased the beta that you were infact contributing to its developement and helping it keep alive, not buying an already complete product. (you should concider it a bonus that the plan has always been to give the final to the contributers once it is stable and ready)

Obviously you are a big fan of the project itself, otherwise you'd use something else and not be getting so frustrated about it all.

Maybe instead of wasting your time on legal action you should offer some help with the project itself.
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Old 06-26-2006, 11:17 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DayCuts
It seems to me that taking such an action will result in one of two basic outcomes, neither of which would be desired.

Pursuing such a class action suit could and almost certainly would, at best, result in huge further delays of the projects developement due to the huge demand on time, money and resources it would put on IniCom Networks. Not only would it impack on ioFTPd but it would also have significant impack on other projects managed by IniCom. At worst? well it could stop developement permanently and potentially put IniCom out of business.

The other way it could go is it could force IniCom to push out a final as quick as possible just for the sake of getting it out, and i think we all know what happens when developers of any software try to do that.

I can certainly understand your feelings for it taking so long, but im sure it was made clear at the time you purchased the beta that you were infact contributing to its developement and helping it keep alive, not buying an already complete product. (you should concider it a bonus that the plan has always been to give the final to the contributers once it is stable and ready)

Obviously you are a big fan of the project itself, otherwise you'd use something else and not be getting so frustrated about it all.

Maybe instead of wasting your time on legal action you should offer some help with the project itself.
Frankly the potential of the lawsuit could do either of your proposed actions. Both of which I am willing to risk.

Inicom has stated in another thread that they will be removing the advertising from the main page for ioFTPd 1.0 as it was based on another programmer's timeline.

Neoxed is apparently now going to be working on the project, but what results that will yield is anyone's guess as _panic_'s results were less than favorable.

So far I see alot of spinning wheels but nothing is actually moving from Inicom or from ioFTPd.

What is moving is the growing number of users that have contacted me with the exact same feelings and willing to participate along side me.

I dispatched an email directly to Mr. Hill last Friday in an effort to discuss this as per his wishes, but as yet have not received a response, and I am not likely to. Nor do I expect to.

If I do not hear from him by the end of this week, he will have made up my mind for me.
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